Response from NARAS about Eliminating Polka Category

[MikeMatousek]

Hi Folks,

Just thought you might be interested in seeing the response NARAS sent to the International Polka Association regarding the IPA's inquiry into the elimination of the Polka Category from the Grammy Awards.

Mike Matousek


September 8, 2009

David Ulczycki
International Polka Association
4608 South Archer Avenue
Chicago, IL 60632-2932

Dear Mr. Ulczycki:

Neil Portnow forwarded your letter of August 20 to my attention.

Please understand that our decision to eliminate the Polka Category from the Grammy Awards was based on the number of entered recordings that we have been receiving and not intended as a statement about this otherwise vibrant musical community.

It is currently a standing policy of The Academy to revue any category in which submissions to the process drop below 25 entries. When this was the case for Polka three years ago, the decision-making body voted to keep the category with the hope that it was an anomaly and that entries would increase. Well, they did increase slightly for two years, but then dropped below 25 again this past year, resulting in the category’s elimination.

You must understand that the integrity and broad acclaim of the Awards rest on it being a true and difficult to win competition. With fewer than 25 entries, that means that any Polka recording entered has a better than one-in-five chance of a nomination. When compared to, say, Rock, in which an entrant has a one-in-50 chance of a nomination, you can see how this simply didn’t seem fair.

Polka recordings are still eligible for Grammy consideration in our Folk categories—and we received several Polka entries there this year.

You are absolutely correct in your statements about the vitality of Polka outside the recording industry. As a German-American who grew up in central Pennsylvania and southern Michigan—and as a some-time tuba player—Polka Music has a place in my heart. Please pass along our continued best wishes to the Polka community.

All the best,

Bill Freimuth
Vice President, Awards

[MichelleG]

Nice reply however I still do question the submission numbers from Native American, Hawaiian, and female Rap categories.

This isn't confirmed but a little birdie told me that those categories remain in existance because they banded together at their own level and each of the above have large fundraisers and large roots level memberships fees which cover the costs for their members to automatically be members of NARAS and automatically allows their members to submit releases to their genre's parent organizations who in turn ensure adequate submissions and memberships at the NARAS level.

That is also EXACTLY what the Cajun Zydeco folks in Louisiana did too. Banded together, got a bunch of their roots level organizations to raise money to finance the Cajun Zydeco category. They also got the governor of Louisiana and a few other govt names involved.

Basically, it boils down to $2500 at a minimum then.

Why wouldn't it work for polka music if we all banded together to ensure a minimum of 25 submissions per year like the other categories do?

[MikeSurratt]

It's all well and good to "band" together -- but in all those categories you mention -- the same artist has not won the grammy each year...imagine that...

"Basically, it boils down to $2500 at a minimum then." --

Basically, conjecture...and not really thought out -- are you saying that if 25 polka musician members pay their dues, the category will be reinstated? I don't think so...there were more than that who paid their dues...it's NOT about dues, it's about competition and when there is a lack of competition, why have a category/contest??


MS

[MichelleG]

Why would you state I had little or no evidence when I did state the Cajun Zydeco people have banded together (futhermore, they openly and admittingly state they raised funds to purchase their way into a category)? What evidence is you want Mike? My statement was made from public statements they've written regarding how they accomplished getting a category.....hardly conjecture.

Nor did I say that 25 musicians have to be members. I specifically used the word "submissions".
WIth the focus being on submissions and not on just having 25 musician members. My statement was focusing on the $2500 it takes to have 25 submissions, not 25 musician members who may or may not have a submission each year.


By the way Mike, NARAS has more than just musician members. Don't they look upon the production people more importantly than the musicians? .....being that's where the money ultimately usually resides anyway.

[MikeSurratt]

Well...sorry Michelle -- you should relax a bit (again)

1 "Why would you state I had little or no evidence when I did state the Cajun Zydeco people have banded together (furthermore, they openly and admittingly state they raised funds to purchase their way into a category)? What evidence is you want Mike? My statement was made from public statements they've written regarding how they accomplished getting a category.....hardly conjecture."

Please give site sources. I would read them. I know that (cajun/zydeco) artists did do some internal lobbying and approached Naras numerous times before they got their own category and it took years to get their own category. I was told this at local chapter gatherings. What's your point???? What does this have to do with getting a "polka" category back? As I stated, at least their category is not being dominated by one artist.

Best Zydeco Or Cajun Music Album 2008 - Live At The 2008 New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival BeauSoleil & Michael Doucet "

Best Zydeco Or Cajun Music Album 2007 - Worldwide Terrance Simien & The Zydeco Experience

SITE SOUCE: http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Winners/

Do your own research with the Hawaiian, American Indian, whatever categories...

2. "Nor did I say that 25 musicians have to be members. I specifically used the word "submissions".
WIth the focus being on submissions and not on just having 25 musician members. My statement was focusing on the $2500 it takes to have 25 submissions, not 25 musician members who may or may not have a submission each year."

Why does it take $2,500 (or $25 for that matter) to have 25 submissions? This statement doesn't make any sense at all. One artist can submit more than 1 CD they produce (I have), plus you can submit in many categories using just one song from any given CD you submit. So, as an artist, I could submit 1 CD in any category, and 14 songs in others,etc. Now "record companies" can submit multiple CD releases:

http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Voting/

But it is individual voting members of Naras that decide who gets nominated and wins a grammy, not record companies.

3. "By the way Mike, NARAS has more than just musician members."

Recording Academy voting members are professionals with creative or technical credits on six commercially released tracks (or their equivalent). These may include vocalists, conductors, songwriters, composers, engineers, producers, instrumentalists, arrangers, art directors, album notes writers, narrators, and music video artists and technicians.

I for one, have met many more "musicians" at Naras gatherings than engineers, technicians, art directors, etc.

"Don't they look upon the production people more importantly than the musicians"

I think we (members) look at other professionals within Naras as a vote, One vote (membership) that was earned by being involved with at least 6 tracks on one or more "recordings." An accomplishment from hard work...

You must understand that most people who work for Naras in La and in regional chapters are not voting members. So, I don't know who you think "they" are? So, shall we save our pennies and sign up 25 "album note writers" within the polka field and use their clout to get the category back? One major problem with the polka world is independent record companies. We don't have a "Rounder" or "Sony" label that can submit 30-300 releases on a particular label like Rock, Rap, Country genres have. Most years, I think there could have been 30-40-50 (maybe more) submissions in the polka music category. So, why did many artists not submit CDs or join Naras? -- I think we know the answer to that question.

http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Voting/FAQs/#five

By the way Michelle,

I truly want the category back. But, I would want us (Polka affiliated Naras Members) to work together to keep the category's integrity intact if it should ever return. That was why we lost it in the first place - low submissions, 1 dominant winner, lack of involvement (promotion) outside of many member's little polka music world and also a VERY obvious lack of support from Polka organizations while the category was there. I would rather see $2,500 spent promoting polka music (maybe hiring ad people/publicists) in large "music" publications to change the stigma of polka. Also, why not use $2,500 for research and publication of demographics: Music sales, Festival/Ticket sales. Radio shows, etc. These would be hard facts to push getting the polka grammy back, or maybe the facts wouldn't?

I'm afraid that the fallout from the category being eliminated is bad...while promoting my latest CD this year, I got lots of replies saying that many within the polka field did not renew their Naras membership. That's not gonna help...

MS

[MichelleG]

"Well...sorry Michelle -- you should relax a bit (again)"

This and the fact you say my statements are conjecture are exactly a few of the reasons people who try to assist in promoting get sick of trying to promote polka music.

How many ideas do you see thrown onto this site only for a few people to pick them apart while insulting the person who is trying to at least come up with some ideas? That's exactly reason number one why there aren't enough people entering into discussions in polka music. They don't want the hassle.

I'm out......I thought this was going to be a site where people could openingly put out ideas for the benefit of polka music.

[MikeSurratt]

"Well...sorry Michelle -- you should relax a bit (again x2)"

"I'm out......I thought this was going to be a site where people could openingly put out ideas for the benefit of polka music."

Ok? You did that...and no discussion can follow? Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that they are attacking you in some way.

This is a Polka Music Forum: A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website. Open discussion means just that.

Conjecture: Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.

Michelle, have you ever submitted an entry for Grammy consideration or attended a NARAS meeting with one of the directors of awards from their national headquaters in LA? Also, have you networked with Cajun/Zydeco artists and had many private email discussions with some of them about what's going on in the Cajun/Zydeco category? I have...and when I said your $2,500 idea was conjecture. It was.

Also, I am not an expert on Naras...but, I do have a little more inside information and if you find any of my statements that are guesswork, you can point that fact out to me anytime and I would not consider it a reason to say "I'm out."

MS

[LGomulka]

All of this discussion is what we need. All the ideas are excellent. Sometimes when we're right on top of something we may not see the obvious. I was a member of NARAS before the polka category was established in the late 70's early 80's. In my conversations with NARAS officials through the many years (in local chapters and in their headquarters in CA) it was always made clear that a category existed because of active participation. I've seen the polka category go from many, many entry's in a given year to nearly 20. In the years that we had only 20 entry's I happen to know that we actually had an additional 20-30 eligible recordings that were never submitted to NARAS for various reasons. This spells out inactive participation and it was bound to happen. From the eyes of NARAS this downturn raises a red flag. I remember a similar situation happened in 1983 to the Folk category which eventually succeeded in getting back into the game. I'm optimistic that we involved with Polka music can eventually get reinstated also but it's going to take this type of discussion to make it happen. Michelle's ideas show that she's thinking outside the box and thats exactly what we need to do in this day & age.

Lenny Gomulka
Lenny Gomulka & Chicago Push
http://www.chicagopush.com

[MikeSurratt]

Well, now that Jimmy Sturr has received a nomination in the 2009 Best Traditional Folk Album
(Vocal or Instrumental) category -- It's damn if you do and damn if you don't. But, you certainly have to congratulate the Sturr promotional machine.

What does this say to Naras? That polka is strong enough or that JS is strong enough? Last year, there were 20+ entries in the polka category and this year only a handful of "polka" bands even bothered to submit in the Traditional or Contemporary Folk categories.

Naras doesn't think outside the box -- they just see numbers.

Now, on the plus side, I recently had a nice email from AOL saying that their new polka music station has done well and is staying! That's great news! In my opinion, it's facts (demographics) like these that show polka in a positive light.

As you said Lenny -- low submissions is a red flag. If we consider Michelle's idea -- money given by someone to help polka musicians become Naras members and SUBMIT their releases would help to get the category back, eventually...maybe...

Who knows -- it's a real shame that all the polka bands that submitted in 2008 refused to participate in 2009. I think if there had been 20+ entries in Traditional Folk from Polka bands, more "polka type" nominations might have happened and "polka" maybe would have dominated the category and then "folk" musicians would have something to bitch about.

It's all moot now...

I just shake my head -- if you lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink, right?

MS

[jrodg]

Mike, you wrote above on this thread, before the latest "revelation" (surprise, surprise...) of Mr. Sturr's nomination in the Grammies' traditional folk category (side by side with a group of genuinely traditonal "folkies") broke, that "at least the other Grammy categories" (mentioned by Michelle) weren't given to the same artist every time ." Well, that pretty much answers your question about whether this nomination is more about polka or more about Mr. Sturr ." Polka be darned "'( which it is , at this point, to use diplomatic language ) as far as NARAS/GRAMMIES are concerned, but their "machine" remains predictably geared to give Mr. Sturr prime recognition ,wherever a place can be found or created for him. Yes, of course, as you say, many polka artists have been disillusioned by the "Sturr Grammy" and the subsequent dropping of the entire highly dubious polka category that caused so many, including the mainstream media, to roll their eyes. Now as then, various new proposals are circulating for money to be contributed ( in the thousands now, please, at the very least ^^ ) in support of this ..."stuff" ( trying hard to keep my language decent) . The decline in support you mention here is really all too understandable because , to elaborate a bit on your metaphor, how many "horses" want to drink out of a polluted well ? ...

[MikeMatousek]

I don't believe there is a conspiracy at work within NARAS management to favor Mr. Sturr. To the contrary, the preference of NARAS officials is that all music categories generate as many different GRAMMY winners as possible. That's why the number of recordings submitted into a category is paramount - the more entries, the more possible winners (and greater the category credibility). It's certainly not about a few thousand dollars regardless of its origin. It's important to note that the NARAS organization is simply comprised of its voting members (the Academy) associate members, and a few chapter and national officers. The people who serve on the category committees are just volunteer voting members representing all the chapters. GRAMMY nominations are determined by simple democracy, not by a secret, malevolent movement behind the scenes. Jimmy Sturr's GRAMMY nomination in the Traditional Folk category is a victory for polka music. It demonstrates that he can garner enough votes for award consideration regardless of the category. If Mr. Sturr personifies "polka" in the eyes of whom we could consider non-polka voters, that's fine. As my Dad always says, "an incoming tide floats all boats." Whether these voters vote according to their polka music understanding or artist loyalty is beyond anyone's control in a democratic system. His nomination should encourage other polka artists to submit in the future.

[jrodg]

Your conclusion, Mike, is that "Mr. Sturr's nomination ( and proof that he can be nominated "in any category") should encourage other polka artists to compete. Allow me ( and most polka artists, which is obviously happening) to respectfully disagree :It is precisely Mr. S's invariable selection , throughout the years ( and now, lo and behold, in yet another category , immediately after his former awards category was eliminated) which has disillusioned and driven away polka artists by the droves . Disillusionment, skepticism and even disgust at the state of the polka Grammy ( in which Mr. S was of course the ,prime player) was of course what led to the constantly decreasing participation and termination of the category, which had long since lost all credibility in the eyes of any halfway objective observer. Now anyone who wants "more of the same" ( in the folk category no less) is of course welcome to participate, contribute or whatever... but again, most have already passed judgement on this farce , year in, year out. Of course a few "artists" with Grammy/nom. aspirations ( regardless of the conditions or spurious nature of this situation) will continue to agitate in support of the process in the hope that they may benefit from it indirectly ( having presumably bought into the concept that even a tainted award , voted on by electors who, as you acknowledge, don't know or care in the least about their genre or their abilities ) is better than none at all ---Of course the resulting prestige ( should they somehow manage to get a lesser award in JS's shadow, as it were) may increase their earnings , get them a few more gigs or whatever---You write that it's not about the money--That sounds idealistic and you may well believe this; however, in the final analysis ,virtually all publicity-oriented business activity ( and the
Grammies are certainly no exception from this rule ) is precisely about the money: Increasing the name recognition and profits of those involved are generally the ultimate goals being pursued. Very few are fooled about any of this , and so Mr. Sturr's eternal nominations and awards , which are outliving even the demise of his erstwhile grotesquely skewed Grammy category, are greeted with the degree of enthusiasm which marks other such totally predictable "contests," the best examples of which worldwide are those Third World elections we hear about in the news weekly, where the same candidates win year- after- year- after -year after- year. Praise the Lord( or whatever power) we are usually spared such terrible fraudulent spectacles in the U.S. ( at the national level, anyway) --- all the more reason why this spectacle is alien and off-putting to most Americans : After some years of naive semi-acceptance of the situation, people began rejecting it in droves : Why? Because it's just senseless and WRONG ---and if NARAS, whose toleration of this gross sate of affairs you attempt to defend , had a true commitment to fairness and integrity, they would have made sure that something like this would not happen many years ago---and would do the same today, now that the Sturr group surfaces as an unlikely candidate amidst traditional American "folky-dom."
But why should I waste any more breath on this , now or ever? : Most have already made the understandable decision to just turn their back on the mess since NARAS and those creating and enabling this clearly have no intention of cleaning up their act. There is something in me which makes me want to protest such obvious wrongdoing, but I suppose it's just a waste of time and I should, as most others do at this point , just ignore it and use my energy on better things : God give me the strength to turn away from it for good and and enable me and others to cease tolerating any aspect of this unconscionable ,ludicrous situation, or even dignifying it with our attention.

[MikeMatousek]

Joe, I'm hardly defending the situation; merely explaining how the system works. It's no different than a general election in politics. The most "popular" candidate wins. NARAS officials have entertained a number of possible methods to adjust the nomination process but the rank and file voting membership has repeatedly voted them down. This is a fact. The voters resist any limits on their freedom to vote as they choose. In the meantime, I think it's more productive to stay involved and encourage others to do the same in order to increase the polka knowledge in the Academy. I also keep routing for the Orioles even though the Red Sox or Yankees will win the American League East every year

[Yevi]

How do you really feel Joe? I get the impression you are blocking and holding back (<insert silly smiley face here>)! All joking aside, I will start by saying that I admire and respect your passion and I believe all good people should be opinionated and should defend them (personal opinions) ferociously. I also know, from reading your posts, that you are a man of intellect who enjoys a well presented discussion/debate– and I will offer this wrinkle to that side of you. Let me preface by stating that I agree with most of your base observations - The Grammy does not truly represent the feelings of the overall Polka community and the system does lend itself to possible scenarios (the “Sturr lock”) that might be considered inequitable. Yet I believe these perceived inequities are only apparent to those entrenched in the Polka community. I propose that we “step outside” our knowledge of Polkas and look at it completely from a non-polka persons point of view. Why – because “non-polka people perception” is integral in every discussion we have regarding the present and future of the music. If we are going to continue to discuss what we can do moving forward we most certainly have to factor in the opinions of the very people we are trying to encourage to become new fans. My personal experience has been this – the Grammy Nomination for Polka (regardless of who actually wins) has given a sense of “legitimacy” to my +30 years of Polka performing far greater than anything else I have done –IN THE EYES OF MY NON-POLKA FRIENDS AND AQUINTANCES. I DO NOT think it is right, DO NOT feel it is deserved, and DO NOT feel it is fair whatsoever – but I can attest that it is the truth. All these people see is the TV show, the stars, and are willing (if only for a little bit) to associate me and other Polka musicians with that sense of achievement. Even if Sturr won every year, there still are 4 other nominated groups/artists that will probably experience some of the same. It is tough to disregard this when our music fights daily for a sense of “legitimacy”. If we can somehow renew our category within NARAS I do have one idea to possibly make it more reflective of “our” Polka community. We can form a group of voters, and then take an open vote regarding that years submissions PRIOR to the actual recorded vote. If the group then votes as a block for our poll winner, it will be a force to be reckoned with and would avoid the vote splitting scenario that has doomed some other nominees in the past. This, of course, is predicated on the group working together and honoring the agreement, but I believe it can be done. I must state this before I close (yes, this is me saying this). Even though the style of Sturr is not exactly the kind I enjoy to play or listen to, I must applaud Jim and Gus for their promotional machine. I will not curse them for being successful at what they tried, even though it might have left a sense of unfairness in the hearts of some. They have wonderfully talented musicians and are just trying to achieve all they can, I cannot in good conscience begrudge that. Besides, Jimmy is a fellow U of Scranton alum! Maybe we should just try and light a candle …
A very peaceful and joyous Christmas to all, I wish everyone the best this holiday season
Mike

[MikeMatousek]

Well stated, Yev. My personal research confirms your views are held by the majority working "Polish-style" polka musicians (I can't speak for other polka genres). I can also personally attest to the fact that the GRAMMY legitimizes our genre in the eyes of non-polka fans and facilitates the process of "converting" new polka fans. Over the last ten years I've worked with advertising executives from several world-class marketing agencies (two based in Chicago) on a host of national ad campaigns. They do tons of research, both quantitative and qualitative. When I told them that a GRAMMY was being awarded for "Best Polka Recording" they were always impressed. One exec told me that no advertising campaign could ever match the impact of a polka music GRAMMY Award. This is important since many within our industry think all we need is more advertising to enhance the image of polka music and expand its base.

For those who toil to broaden the polka audience to ensure the future viability of our beloved genre, I believe the GRAMMY Award is the most effective tool we have in the box right now, despite all its process flaws. For those who don't share this vision, I empathize with your frustration with NARAS and hope you take advantage of every opportunity to enjoy polkas while you can.

[jrodg]

I understand your points, guys-- I know (even from my own indirect experience with the Grammies as a songwriter for a few nominees, from talk about a nomination for our band decades ago, etc. ) how great the attraction of the Grammy name is to the non-polka world : My non-polka friends and students were all impressed by any mention of such "brushes" with the organization and its awards.
Possibly ( a long shot at this point ) a revival of the polka Grammy category might help the polka field . It's just a shame, though that any such possibility comes with an apparent pre-condition attached; namely, that it has to be dominated by Jimmy Sturr (Yevi's proposal to help prevent this should the polka Grammy ever become feasible again is certainly a good idea.) I do take issue with Mike M's reasoning that Mr. Sturr's awards are simply due a natural truth of politics, that the "most popular candidate" wins : In fact, although I don't dispute that JS has a fine band , great musicians and a great promotional machine, he and his group, I feel , have never been the field's most popular group-- far from it: In fact, I think most realize, the real "Gods" ,and truly most popular figures of the field have been Lil Wally, Frankie Y, Marion L, Happy Louie and Eddie B : It is they who have won most of the honors of the polka field itself throughout our lifetimes, while JS's awards are largely limited to his Grammy stronghold alone. In 45+ years in the polka field , having lived and travelled in New England, NY, Chicago,Md.,etc. , I've met thousands of ardent polka fans ---devoted, even fanatical fans of all of these artists l??) -- but never ,EVER, met a single ardent JS fan....Have you?? --There must be some such people (?), but I think the fact that a lifetime polka "nut" has never even met one speaks volumes. Then of course, too, polka "greatness" ( and Grammy status in general , one would assume) depends on many more criteria, such as great hits ( All the other artists mentioned have had many big hits---but Mr. Sturr never has ) , exceptional creativity, charisma, vocal quality,etc. ---Again,Mr. Sturr has a fine band, but most of these exceptional qualities which are readily apparent in the other artists, are missing from his work,I feel.
Once again, Mr. S has a good band and good musicians --- but, Yevi, you mention that it's not your favorite style ...How often do we hear people say that , on this site and everywhere we go? ---very often, right ?: At any given time you can read several posts by people declaring their lack of love for the JS style --- In fact , Mr. Sturr would probably win the award for the most un-appreciated artist on polka sites hands-down....On the other hand, when have you read or heard of anyone proclaiming their love for the band and its creations?
Please don't get me wrong.: I know JS has a good band and that his org. has worked hard to achieve great success. I also agree with you both that association with the Grammy can have good results for the polka field . Your approach is more pragmatic and business-oriented. Mine is more focused on truth and fairness, which I think are important in the artistic field and in life, too, and here I feel that, although JS and Co. have shown expertise and achieved success through promoting and networking, it is sad for the field as a whole and for historic , artistic and creative integrity that JS's main talents and NARAS's organizational defects have long allowed a situation to fester that deprives the greatest stars, talents and heroes of the polka field of the honors and recognition that rightfully belong to them---and thus, as others have said before, in order to keep its integrity, most of the field recognizes the various polka organizations' honors as the true , rightful polka awards, and acknowledges their recipients as the genuinely greatest, most popular polka stars.
Damn, and I just vowed that I'd stop onthis subject---Beam me up, Scotty!